The Asia IsnurTech Podcast spoke with Alex Leung, a co-founder of OneDegree, about their journey from starting a virtual insurer in Hong Kong selling pet insurance to cybersecurity and NFTs.
Here is the transcript of our conversation:
Michael Waitze
Hi, this is Michael Waitze and welcome back to the Asia InsurTech Podcast. This is the only podcast in Asia focused on insurance that gives entrepreneurs, thought leaders and investors a platform to discuss how technology is basically reshaping everything, including insurance. Today, we are lucky to have Alex Leung, a co-founder of OneDegree. Alex, it’s great to have you back on the show. And just to remind you, and to give you some context for me, the last time you were here was May 2020. You’re laughing and I say this a lot recently, like it feels like yesterday, but it also feels like 35 years ago, because so much stuff has changed. It was only 18 months ago anyway, how are you doing, by the way?
Alex Leung
Great to be back, Michael. And certainly sounds like decades since we last talked. I’m sure. I’m sure I also feel that I aged quite a bit too since the last time we chat.
Michael Waitze
Look how gray my hair is? The only thing is, it’s been like this since my 20s. but who’s counting? Look, it’s really interesting to me, when we talk to you the last time in May one of the things we asked you was, you know, what’s the biggest trend? We asked all our new guests on the show what it is. And you talked about digital distribution, comparisons, ecommerce, and stuff like that. But I don’t want to focus on that so much today. I want to talk about what’s new with your business? Because I feel like there’s been a lot of change in the last 18 months, and not all of it due to COVID. Right? We’ve already had that conversation with plenty of people. But I’m curious what’s new with One Degree?
Alex Leung
Yeah, it’s tremendous amount has happened over the past 18 months. So I think the last time when we chatted back in May 2020. It was just really at the beginning when we launched our InsurTech operation Hong Kong. And and since then a lot has happened even just on the insurance operation when we launched the pet insurance at the end of April of 2020. Actually, the take up or the conversion was like, nominal. And where the team was trying to figure it out. Well, we did a lot of tests and survey and then during the product design process, what’s from there? And it seems like people are not just reacting the way that we wanted them to. And yeah, and it was it was actually a big learning process for us to throughout the throughout the year of whole year 2020. And what we did there was then we quickly iterated our product on the pet insurance, design, pet insurance underwriting, even some of the user experience removing the frictions. And from then like every really about literally every two to three months, we had a major release or major change just quickly iterating because we kind of own our full stack technology from the underwriting rating engine, the core system to the front end user application, so we’re able to do that very rapidly. And since then, that we’re now we are the largest pet insurance provider in Hong Kong.
Michael Waitze
Wait, so can I just jump in here for a second? So you’re saying that when you first released this product, there wasn’t the uptake that you expected? But then you iterated and changed all this stuff? And now you’re the biggest pet insurer in Hong Kong?
Alex Leung
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. That’s pretty exciting. Right?
Michael Waitze
It’s very exciting. Go ahead.
Alex Leung
So it’s really through that iterative process and that capability to do that. I think it’s very important for any insurance players or even digital players in the market. There was a lot lesson to learn. For for now, like we recently launched new products also, right? It’s all kind of gone through that process, and really having to be agile and keep, you know, listening to customers.
Michael Waitze
You do all this research, you launch a product and you don’t get the response you expect. And there must be a little bit of fear, like, oh, maybe we did the wrong thing. But then you take the next two to three months, right? You iterate it, you change the user experience, you do all this stuff. And then it works. Does it make it easier for you and the team to think you know what, maybe we’ll just roll out something new anyway. And even if it doesn’t work, now, we know how to fix it and change it. Does that make sense?
Alex Leung
It certainly does. And we actually didn’t get it right just one time. Yeah, so So some like you know, from from April, and then we launched a new version in June, slightly better than within September, we launched again with another version. And then in December, we launched another version. So with each pass that we were able to actually increase conversion, lowering our customer acquisition costs, that we are able to better retain these customers. So it’s really continuous to be iterative process and getting a product better. When inside I can share is that we had a misconception, right? For whatever reason, when we did the research back then it must be flawed was that hey, when we do digital insurance that we have to go for low cost policies or low premium policies. And so when we wrote our pet insurance plans, there were three options. One is the very low cost plan. That’s like a few $100 Hong Kong dollars a year right and then we have a very premium plan that’s a few $1,000 a year, right? And what happened was that, hey, once we start selling the market, we noticed that no one is actually buying the cheapest one. Okay, so So from there, then we have the insight well, okay, actually, these segments of pet parents that we after, they’re not really the kinds of folks that are looking for cost savings or looking for the cheapest option to provide to get insurance coverage. So we decided to dump the few $100 plan. And we roll out what we call an ultra plan is actually even more expensive than our premium plan. And that’s actually our best seller in the market. So kind of contrary to believes that, you know, micro insurance is going to rule the world, right. But I think in certain contexts micro insurance work. But in a forum, people are still willing to pay big tickets on a digital insurance distribution model.
Michael Waitze
That’s really interesting. That’s really interesting. But did you keep three choices?
Alex Leung
Yeah, we maintain three choices, even today, we kind of just shifted the plan option, right by level up.
Michael Waitze
So you made the middle choice, the lower choice, the premium choice, the middle choice, and then the ultra choice, the high end one, right?
Alex Leung
Exactly, exactly.
Michael Waitze
I love this works. There’s a whole bunch of what’s it called, like business psychology that gets built into this as well, right?
Alex Leung
That’s right. Well, you always presume that folks who will be anchored to the middle plan, but in this case, we haven’t really found that to be in effect here. It seems like the these consumers are free savvy, they know what they want, and everybody going forward the best option and the most comprehensive option.
Michael Waitze
I like this, you know, one of the Theses that I had, and you’ve heard me say this, if you’ve listened to the podcast, we spent a lot of time even when you’re not on the show, actually talking about One Degree. And part of the reason for me was because I liked the idea of starting with pet insurance. And I don’t know if this was your team or your you or your theory on this. But it always seemed to me like a little bit of a Trojan horse. So what do I mean by that? You get into people’s lives by offering them pet insurance and the premium stuff works in the ultra works, that’s great. But once you get them to trust the fact that they can buy pet insurance online or any insurance online, digitally native, right, then you can offer them other products. So you’re in their life already. And then you can move into other products. Was that always the plan? Or is this just me fantasizing about that being the plan?
Alex Leung
You’re right, but the Trojan horse makes it sounds kind of evil, right? Yeah, I
Michael Waitze
don’t mean it like that at all. I use it. And when I went back in like reread the Iliad, I said to myself, That’s not what you mean. But it’s a way of like giving a gift and then having something else inside the gift is what I really mean. And I know, I remember the Peloponnesian War. So anyway, right? That’s
Alex Leung
So it was actually a very conscious decision as a team, we decided to enter the market with pet insurance. I mean, it’s really for a few reasons. I think last time, maybe I also mentioned a cover a bit on that, too. It’s really the marketing aspect was great, because it’s very community driven, very targeted, yep, allow us to reach a particular segment, we want to reach within the market, and grow from there. Since then, beginning and to share, then we roll out our home insurance product, right, just within the last week. Actually, we did a PR yesterday, good stuff on our wellness health insurance product.
Michael Waitze
I didn’t want to say though, we spent a lot of time over the last few minutes talking about insurance. But I feel like One Degree has changed the last 18 months to more than just an insurance company. Maybe you can talk about some of the other components of the business cuz I feel like you’ve built out a bunch of other things as well.
Alex Leung
Yeah, we certainly have. But insurance is still a core and the key vertical that we focus everything really surrounds that. Our insurance operation in Hong Kong. We have our technology company based in Singapore, headquartered in Singapore with presence across the region. And the technology company does two primary things. One is licensing our insurance technology solutions, whether it’s the policy admin, underwriting, CRM, rating engines, to enable other insurers to drive their digital transformation. That’s a key component of our work. And then the other parts is our cybersecurity solutions with the increase whether it is in better insurance or your own direct to consumer channels on digitalization. There’s an increased exposure on vulnerability and risk that you’re facing on the web and everywhere. So cybersecurity is a key component to our proposition as well. We have a large team focus on that. It’s been more about really enabling the region and industry and driving innovation forward. That always has been our thesis of starting OneDegree.
Michael Waitze
And is this the IXT business?
Alex Leung
Yeah, so the insurance technology business is the IXT business and for our cybersecurity business is called Cymetrics.
Michael Waitze
Cymetrics. Was this always part of the plan as well, you know, and again, I like to make analogies just so people can understand, like, did you start with this grand vision of, we’re gonna innovate on the product side. And because we have to do that, we’re gonna have to build an innovative platform. And once we roll that out and get it working, we’re gonna separate it out as a separate business or product, and then offer that to other insurers to be able to do that. Because all the stuff we’ve learned they can benefit from, or was it more like some other businesses where it just started happening organically and then people said, Hey, can we have access to that? Do you know what I mean?
Alex Leung
Of course, that it may sound like in hindsight, everything is all planned for. That’s certainly not the case. That’s very not a case. Well, for for the insurance technology part that we were conscious about in the beginning, because when you’re building solutions, that anybody who has been in startup or building software for a living would know that there’s ways that you build solutions as scalable or loading solution, just getting a quick win or getting out there. So if you need to actually license your solutions and be able to use by others, then you need to think about scalable solution, that flexibility, as well as a feature need to be comprehensive enough to cater to all the customization needs. But but for the cybersecurity part, really, that that we didn’t really plan for, for sure. And how our venture, since then kind of expanded beyond technology insurance operation in Hong Kong, getting involved in a few joint venture now how also have insurance brokerage in China, that that wasn’t part of original evil plan that we had, of course,
Michael Waitze
I feel like you’re gonna hold this against me for the rest of my life, I didn’t mean that. But it’s good that we can laugh about it. So I’m really trying to understand like the inner workings of the business development, right, when you’re so you have this idea of pet insurance as a way to get people in the community, and then to be able to deliver the product to them. When you’re building this or even before you’re thinking we’re going to also build a tech business, because we know if we can build this non trivial and sort of tech for ourselves and other people can use it. When it comes to the cybersecurity things right, this is just something maybe that you’ve noticed along the way. What is it like telling the team like this is actually going to become a product as opposed to just something that happened? Do you know what I mean?
Alex Leung
Yeah, it actually excites them, right? Because when we build out, especially our own digital insurer, virtual insurer Hong Kong, there was a big, very stringent cybersecurity requirement for running these operations. We hired a great team, a bunch of hackers actually.
Michael Waitze
Makes sense, though, right? You want guys that know how to break stuff to stop them from getting broken?
Alex Leung
Exactly. And so so once we got them in, and they were focused on really internal operation during the pen test services, just kind of with future production, they want to actually do more. And it actually excites them that we want to prioritize the things that we’re doing that can actually enable and have a larger impact around the region rather than just within one company. And now and now that I’m sure that Michael yet come across our news on the digital asset and virtual asset space, it’s really a combination of all these things together too because of the insurance knowledge, the security expertise, as well as that we were lucky actually, one, when we were doing hiring and growing our team, we were able to absorb one of the RnD group of engineers to coming off on whenever crypto exchanges. So culminating some of these aspects that kind of make it perfect for us to actually enter that space.
Michael Waitze
And what other kind of crypto assets do you think you will ensure over time? Do you know what I mean? Like will you insure NFTs and all that other stuff? So if some buddy buys an NFT, that’s not actually the original? Or maybe somebody steals it? Because theft can happen there as well. So how is that going to work?
Alex Leung
Yeah. So finally, the fabric. The security risks are very similar, right? Because they all set on the smart contract. And then you have your cold wallet, hot wallet and from these things to ensuring whether NFT, crypto tokens all very much the same to us. Okay. And for our business right now, what we really going after, are these crypto exchanges, as well as custodians were the providers of custodian. software’s. Right, because there’s a huge demand out there and just really no one to actually willing to work with them to cater these policies, because one for one is the lack of knowledge or lack expertise and delving into these areas.
Michael Waitze
How do you price that stuff up then?
Alex Leung
Ah, that’s our secret sauce and really the IP that we have own and building out a really large Incident database ourself. So we actually invested quite a lot in that and building this our expertise with our team. Actually, we’ve been working on this for over a year. So it’s ever since the end of last year just kind of venture we decide to invest into, now it’s really coming about with the strong demand. And we get a lot of inquiries these days and we are working with reinsurer also to extending our capacity such that we can cater to all these demands.
Michael Waitze
Can you talk about who gives capacity for tha? Yeah, it’s fine. I’m just curious, right? Because it’s such an interesting, it’s such an interesting business. It’s an emerging digital risk, right? It’s not a known thing yet, like, like you said, you’re building up your own Incident database, you’re going to have to write because there is no historical data for this on which you can price stuff. So it’s neat the way this whole market is developing. Are there. Is this a parametric product? In other words, is there some because it sits on a smart contract? I’m presuming it’s Etherium of is there a way to build it in a parametric way? Or is it more just like regular indemnity insurance?
Alex Leung
For certain part, it can be parametric, but for the security underlying for for DS risk, you have a couple things that cannot be parametric, for example, let’s say if you have cool wallet, yeah, and your co wallet can be a USB, right. And our insurance will cover the damage to a USB, let’s say, by natural catastrophe, because then you just lose your asset in total. So that cannot be parametric on its own, you have to kind of demonstrate that you actually lost that device. An earthing is that it’s kind of similar to your traditional cyber insurance of an entity. A lot of the issues or key concerns is about the employee theft. Right. So if you have an HSM keys, like in a bank, this is, you know, the keys may not really be that important, because you can get the keys, you can already access the bank accounts of the your customers, but having access to keys within a an exchange. That’s huge.
Michael Waitze
It’s massive. And it’s so interesting, right? Because at the end of the day, the end of the day, there are still humans involved, someone’s got to write the code, someone’s got to provide the security, someone has to have the password, all of these things. And if there’s a bad actor internally, it’s so hard to protect against that. I mean, I think if you look at some of the biggest data leaks, I wouldn’t say they’ve come on purpose. But they’ve come because there’s a disgruntled employee who says I’m just gonna take all this and then release it to the world. Is that Is that fair?
Alex Leung
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. It’s an interesting way. Because with the, the world with NFT is a little bit different from crypto to because NFT is more like a digital certificate. So that when people are transacting on the NFT, so ownership of it, you have to kind of bridging the crypto world as well as the real world, actual asset. So so the actual asset is actually damaged and your NFT is actually worthless to so so there’s a lot of interesting things that you got to think about and providing new insurance coverage.
Michael Waitze
Are there things that people are going to NFT? And then hence insurance types of like we haven’t even considered yet. Do you know what I mean? Like I think sometimes about NFT in some of my podcast episodes, right? Because their original, their digital, it can be proven. And it’s like the unedited version of that kind of thing. Does that work too?
Alex Leung
Well, from a digital art or digital goods perspective, it works, right. But nowadays, you also have ownership of you know, physical goods, but having a digital certificate that’s on NFT.
Michael Waitze
Yeah, it’s almost like a stock certificate used to be or a bond certificate, you’d have it in a vault somewhere. But now you just have it on a secure, like you said, like a drive or some kind of secure wallet, right? Really, really interesting. You also mentioned the brokerage business, what was the idea of getting into the brokerage business as well?
Alex Leung
Yeah, so within OneDegree, we really are experimenting with various different type of business model or different ways of engaging with the industry players. We don’t know what works and what doesn’t work, right. It’s the best ways for us actually, to get into market and, and we have a very strong team that we put locally into the China market to really try that forward. And it’s really still fundamentally a direct to consumer business, when the tightening of the regulation in China, for us, it’s really about getting to business, right, and having an actual license to operation and really building from grounds up. Right. This is the whole proposition that we’re doing very differently than the previous business within China. From product design perspective, from marketing perspective, meeting within the new regulatory and regulation requirements, it’s it’s something that’s a key concern from fundamentally from a business because we were very highly regulated because our insurance company in Hong Kong so the brand aspect is also key and important to protect. Oh, I don’t want to kind of say that a lot of business in China or the InsurTech are looking for gray areas. But there’s certainly a lot of things that were really on the on the fringe if you will that were largely impacted because of regulations.
Michael Waitze
Yeah, fair enough. And as the regulations change, you have to be able to change and adapt with him. Again, if you look back to just before you founded this company, right, you’re sitting around with your buddies, you’re having a conversation, like, we have to do this OneDegree thing. And here’s the way we’re going to map it out. And you mentioned earlier, right? There’s a lot of experimentation that takes place. But there’s also a lot of I don’t know what is and what isn’t going to work. Are you surprised by anything being the CEO, being the you know, the leader of the business, obviously, you have co-founders as well. But just like the day to day stuff that you’re working on, as opposed to what you thought you were going to be working on? When you founded the company? You don’t I mean.
Alex Leung
I vividly remember, Alvin, and I were sitting at a Starbucks in Taipei actually, that’s kind of the genesis of our venture. And the two of us actually bounce a lot of ideas kind of argue quite a lot about, hey, what are we going to do? But I think fundamentally, we never thought dial businesses will extend or diverse into various different lines so quickly, okay, for sure. And then when we launch in April, last year, our team was maybe about 40 people. And now we’re approaching 200. And yeah, so a lot of things that we’re doing these days is about how we can more efficiently working as an organization, aligning on the mission? And what are we really approaching the synergy that we can drive together as a group, a lot more structural, as well as from a management perspective issues that we would read and think about. Which, which are all very interesting at this stage. And but what what is really great, though, is that we are able to attract a lot of great leaders to join us. So for Hong Kong insurance operation, we have our CEO Arthur, we have Chief Commercial Officer, Helen, they’re great leaders from driving us. And also in Southeast Asia, we will bring bring on board Shawn Lau from from Swiss Re to kind of be as the GM for Southeast Asia growth. And so we’re having all these great leaders and we are more in a coaching and cheerleading perspective rather than, rather than the the guys getting to do actually the fun stuff anymore.
Michael Waitze
Exactly. This is not what I signed up for it. This is interesting to me, when sort of industry executives, and I’ll just use Shawn as an example, as a proxy, not as an example, but as a proxy. Do you get the sense? And look, there’s a lot of innovation on the incumbent side as well, we see it right. And it’s not to say that there isn’t, but you get the sense that sometimes when you bring people in from some of the big global insurers that they feel this, like renewed freedom to say like, I’ve wanted to do this for a long time. And now I have the platform on which I can do it. Does that make sense?
Alex Leung
Yeah, certainly, I will say that is the feeling that most of our colleagues get is that they get a sense of freedom. But they’re also stepping into quite a lot of mess, too, right? But certainly less bureaucracy, politics, we don’t have any of that. And we really are able to back ideas or getting people to experiment with things they want to do. That part would do really well. But the departing which because we have grown very rapidly on the especially on a headcount as well as businesses, there’s a lot of mess or the coordination, communication side that we’ve come here to work out.
Michael Waitze
Yeah, I want to share something with you when I was at Goldman Sachs, right? There was, I think it was somebody internally drew this picture of like, what Goldman looked like from the outside or the perception and what it looked like from the inside. And it was a it was a vehicle and the front part of this vehicle. And you can see the dates that a little bit because I left there a while ago, but the front part of the vehicle was like a brand new Cadillac, like shiny and new. And the back part of the vehicle, which most people couldn’t see was just like a bunch of horses pulling a cart with a broken wheel.
Alex Leung
But it sounds like any startups is that way.
Michael Waitze
But that’s the point. But I want to expose this right, because I think it’s so interesting. There’s this myth, there’s so much mythology right around startups and I want to have these conversations because I want people to understand just how difficult it is. You grew from 40 people and maybe I get the numbers wrong to 200 people and throw COVID in there right so you have to manage around that. But the external looks people look like they just raised a big round they’re growing they’re opening a brokerage they have a they have a tech company now. They had pet insurance now they have home and all these things that are building and getting grown and people are on the outside go wow, this is a well oiled machine. And on the inside everyone’s going oh my gosh, how are we gonna manage this right?
Alex Leung
Yeah, yeah. For sure, it’s like I’m running around like headless chicken and Alvin is running around as headless chickens.
Michael Waitze
But headless is supposed to be a thing. But it wasn’t the chicken that was supposed to be headless. It was supposed to be the technology. Is that right? But how do you manage that mess? Really? Like, how hard is that for you? And like, how much of your time does that take up if you know what I mean?
Alex Leung
How much of that time? Huh? That’s a good question. I think it’s really not measurable. It’s becoming part of our day to day days and takes up a big chunk of Alvin’s day as well, too. And when is all we can think about is how to get everyone within the team across teams who work very well together, clearing misunderstandings, and such that just efficiencies and synergy that we’re going after the same mission of goals. That alignment part is certainly getting more difficult. But we are getting there because we’re doing a lot of things on adjusting our OKRs together, having some leadership alignment on adjusting the org structure reporting lines, such as more better efficiency and communications. And all these things are continuing to be adjusted and learning process. And but one thing but Michael, I’m sure you share it in from your past experience working in large corporates, too. Is that making any of these changes not fast or easy?
Michael Waitze
Yeah, yeah. Cuz you’re not just changing. It’s not like you’re just making a decision and waving a wand and having people go with it. You literally have to get people to like cross a river to change their mindset. And there is a little bit of danger when you’re doing that, right? Because some people may get stuck on the rocks in the river. And there are a whole bunch of other analogies you can make. But those are hard yards to do. And I think these are things that people don’t think about, you know, on day one, when you have this great idea to start a company, like you said, you’re in Taipei, you’re arguing, and you’re trying to figure out what the right path is. You’re not thinking about these minute problems that you may have. And mindset changes, because that’s not part of the excitement, right? That’s part of the drudgery of running a company. I do this all the time. Anyway. I feel like I interrupted you.
Alex Leung
No, no, no, not at all. What did we say about the conversation Taipei. Another thing that popped into my mind is that when Alvin and I were debating, and and he had this actually, he wasn’t one came up the idea of starting an insurance company in Hong Kong. It actually at that time on a table, I call him crazy. I did. Yeah. So he’s quite a visionary. Wanting to actually drive that forward. And we made it happen.
Michael Waitze
Does he ever bring that up with you today? Like, Hey, dude, we’re running this really big thing and you said the whole thing was crazy from the start?
Alex Leung
No, I only said the insurance company part was crazy, because of the capital as well as the resources and getting the key people. And looking back, right, we did spend a lot of time to get an insurance license from the culminating of the venture back in 2016. August, that’s when we actually start a company until we can actually launched a product and be operating April last year, it took a while.
Michael Waitze
It does, though. I mean, if you think about even just the big incumbent insurance companies, they’ve been around for 150-200 years, it takes time to build something. And again, this is another one of the myths of the startup world, right is that it’s like, get big as fast as you possibly can. But some things and I think the best things. The most sustainable things take time to build, right. People are always giving me flak for like, how come you’re not moving faster? I’m like, Look, I’m building a base and building that base takes time.
Alex Leung
Yeah, certainly does. And we were very lucky actually to, for that to actually happen. Besides what we call a dark ages of one degree. We have a group of folks that stuck with us actually, all these years. With really no end in sight at that point, right. Who knows? When will we actually be granted an insurance license to be operating and is yours not just months, right? And especially startup. People kind of lose interest or lose motivations after a while if you actually are not launching the market?
Michael Waitze
Right? Yeah, I mean, there was a book that got written, got it has to be years ago now. Called the new new thing, right. And people are always trying to get to that new new thing. And if you’re not delivering fast enough for either some of your investors or some of your key stakeholders, they do lose interest. But it’s great. It’s really interesting, who you see, like, doesn’t get off the boat and try to get on another boat. And my feeling is that people that do that are never going to get to their whatever their desired destination is because they’re always jumping from one thing to another thing, whereas you’re sticking on and going. Yeah, I feel the waves hitting the side of the boat. But at some point, we’re gonna launch this thing. And then those people are going to want to come back on the boat and it’s going to be too late because we’re too far away from where they’ve jumped. Is that fair as well?
Alex Leung
Yes, certainly. I think having that resolve and pushing it forward and braving it. I think it’s very key. And I think it’s a key trait for any entrepreneur, or entrepreneurial team. From that perspective,
Michael Waitze
I could not agree with you more. Is there anything else new coming that we don’t know about? I mean, you raised a bunch of money. We don’t really have to talk about it. But that has to fuel the growth of some of the stuff that you’re already working on. But there must be some other stuff in the pipeline as well. No.
Alex Leung
Yeah, certainly. There are actually quite a lot of things coming up and in which some I cannot share yet. And maybe next time on this show, either me or Alvin can, yeah, let’s do it. That we are certainly pushing more actually on the virtual asset space. So that’s, that’s to be watched, and also on the technology based space as well with new solutions that will be coming out next year.
Michael Waitze
That sounds awesome. Okay, Alex, I will let you go. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. Alex Leung, a co-founder of OneDegree. Again, a really great conversation. I really appreciate it.
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