The Asia InsurTech Podcast spoke with Gordon, a co-founder of Surer, about how he and his co-founders are solving some of the pain points the insurance industry is facing and are making the sales process of traditional channels more efficient and products more meaningful.
Find the AI transcript of our conversation below.
Michael Waitze 0:06
Hi, this is Michael Waitze. And welcome back to the Asia InsurTech Podcast. We are joined today by Gordon Tay, a co-founder of Surer. Gordon, thanks so much for coming on the show today. I trust you’re well how are you doing?
Gordon Tay 0:21
Good, good. Thanks for having me on the show, Michael.
Michael Waitze 0:23
It’s my pleasure. I love your background, by the way.
Gordon Tay 0:27
Yeah, you wouldn’t be you wouldn’t have to guess the name of our company.
Michael Waitze 0:33
If there was any doubt about where you’re working, or what you’re doing every single pun intended. But now I’m sure of it. Okay, I didn’t I didn’t, I didn’t intend to do it. But you forced me.
Gordon Tay 0:43
I was waiting for that to come right. Anyone we’ve spoken to first got to know our name. They tried to make some point.
Michael Waitze 0:50
I didn’t even want to. I hadn’t thought about it. But it’s just, I was gonna say I’m just sure but and I was like, Oh, don’t do that, Michael, please. This is so embarrassing. But anyway, I did it anyway. Anyway, thanks for coming on the show. Before we get into the main part of the conversation, what do you think is the biggest trend in insurance and InsurTech in Asia right now?
Gordon Tay 1:10
Right. So we’re currently based in Singapore. But what I’m going to share with the within the vision that we are operating out of which is Southeast Asia, right, okay. So really what we have seen is a shift in trend. From a couple of years back. Five, six years ago, all the rage was about cutting out the intermediary going direct to the customer, right? So you’d have digital insurance who do not leverage a sales force, right? They try to market directly to the end policyholder, you’ve got aggregators like the likes of GoBear who are serving direct to the customer as well. I know you’re
Michael Waitze 1:46
GoBear is gone but anyway, go ahead.
Gordon Tay 1:49
Gone and then revive for a little bit. Yeah. So that was what it was right, five to six years ago. And that was what InsurTech was about. Right? When he mentioned InsurTech. Everyone be thinking, right, it’s a business model that cuts out the intermediary. Right, you can argue against that. But that’s our view. But what it is today is that talks are more around digital ecosystems, right, and allowing multiple parties to bring their different unique skill sets to the table contribute in a more efficient manner. So all of which right to steal the ultimate goal, to servce the end policyholder better. So what I’ll say is that with this line of thought we are seeing from InsurTech. Right is a focus on inclusivity instead of exclusivity, right, from platforms acting as supercharged distribution channels like Surer to tech solutions, right, that enable insurers and intermediaries to ready themselves with more integration capabilities.
Michael Waitze 2:48
That’s a great answer before we want to dig a little bit deeper into that, but just for me, right. What is your background? What were you doing before you were doing this? And then how did you get into the insurance business?
Gordon Tay 2:59
Yeah, so my background, nothing to do with insurance. To be honest, like, I’m in the woods as well, with my insurance policy. I, I rely on my agent. But no, so how we got started with insurance was I was always in the tech industry. So prior to co founding shore, I was with two startups that are unicorns today. They’re called PropertyGuru. Prop tech platform that got listed about two weeks ago. Yeah.
Michael Waitze 3:26
A couple of days ago, a couple of weeks ago. On the New York Stock Exchange. Cool.
Gordon Tay 3:33
Yeah. So when I was with PropertyGuru, and that was 10 years back. They weren’t sort of the Juggernaut they are today, right, like we’re walking out of small yo, Chinatown. ShopHouse. So yeah, in Singapore. Yeah. So very inspired by by those early days, when, when when you mentioned tech, it wasn’t like all the rage like it is today, everyone’s a lot more receptive, quite inspired. During that time. I sort of repeated that story in my second sort of company that I joined after leaving PropertyGuru and there was this company called Carousell. Not sure if you’ve heard of them but they are p2p ecommerce platform. Very similar story when I first joined the had like 50 employees growing fast, but I was still in the growth stage. So essentially, like the 10 years that I spent in these two startups, I was really inspired by how tech was able to change the way an industry perceives how they would go about their job, or processes right? In the midst of my time in Carousell, my co-founder, this guy called Derren, you should meet him one day, right? Like have drinks with him and stuff. So he spent his entire career in insurance. So he had experience in claims, in underwriting, in business development, across QBE, AIG, MSIG. He was my junior college classmate as well. So you’re out drink Getting, he was just whining in general about like, how inefficient the industry was right? Just just talking about like, what the hurdles that he had to go through to get like his job done well. So at that point, we said, You know what, like, there’s so many ways of which we can solve this couple of weeks later. And I guess this was because of the drinks that we had. We incorporate that. And then we started bootstrapping, building out like,
Michael Waitze 5:27
Wait a second, was he was at Carousell with you? No. That’s just when you were there.
Gordon Tay 5:33
Yeah. When I was at Carousell, he was always in insurance industry, right.
Michael Waitze 5:37
So he was moaning to you one night after after work or whatever. And then a couple of weeks later, you’re like, Okay, well, if there is a solution, we are the solution kind of thing.
Gordon Tay 5:46
Yeah, yeah. So I like to be honest, at that point in time, like insurance to me, I was like any name and right. But I was really excited. Or inspired by how technology can be leveraged. I’ve seen it right. I was living it right in my time at PropertyGuru, at Carousell. So when he when he was moaning about all these inefficiencies that he was facing in the insurance industry. It really just sort of like ignited this whole chain of thought about, right, like, let’s see how we can leverage technology right to stuff, some of these problems, right, that he was moaning about. And that’s how we got started. Yeah,
Michael Waitze 6:26
It’s a little bit of a nuanced question, right. So you work at a PropertyGuru. It’s really great. You’re working at a small shop house in Chinatown, which I guess is what startups did back then. I’ve had Steve actually on the show a couple of times. Oh, nice. Yeah. And to be fair, I’ve also had what’s his name? Hari Krishna, and I think is his name. I want to make sure I get it. Yeah, he’s the CEO now. Yep. So I did a I did a, what’s it called, like a fireside chat at an e27 event a few years ago in Singapore, and obviously great guys, right? But you work at PropertyGuru. So you get that experience. And you go to Carousell. So you go small again, and then watch that thing grow. If you weren’t always thinking about being an entrepreneur yourself? Do you feel like something changed in your mind when you were at those two companies where everything kind of looks like, if it’s a problem, there’s got to be a solution to it? And if there’s a solution, I may be that solution. Do you know what I mean?
Gordon Tay 7:16
Yeah, no, absolutely. Right. Like prior to joining, or even when I was at PropertyGuru, right, like you had that like, small little thought, in your head always. Right, right. If I were to start my own solution, and if I were to build my own company, right, how would it be and what would it be? But it was always back of mine, right? Because you don’t really have an immediate problem that you felt like you needed to solve for. Yeah, so that spark really came when we had like, when I had my conversation with my co founder, Derren. And it was, it was such a such a such a huge, I guess, like pain point for him. Every time we went out to do drinks, he’d be whining about like, all this inefficient process. And from my perspective, I find it hard to understand because I was working in a company, or in both companies, right, that was sort of at the forefront of using technology to better the lives of people within a particular industry or their users. So it was like, hard for me to grasp, or grapple around the fact that like, he’s in the insurance industry, which is, I feel really important, right? Foundational for a lot of things, and yet have so much to moan about, like, I had no idea. And then, yeah, there was when you know, that spark gets invited, okay, is now sort of like this is the right time to do something, there’s a problem. That seems huge that we want to solve for. And then we just went for it.
Michael Waitze 8:45
So I can just picture and again, let’s go back to that conversation for a second. I can just picture two guys, right? Because you’re already working at a startup company. And you’ve already worked at a couple of them, right? So you kind of know what this mindset is like, you know, what a startup CEO looks like, you know, what the environment inside of one of these smaller companies looks like? Whereas I don’t know, let’s just say he’s working at you know, pick whatever company that he was at, I don’t really care but like his day to day is, like you said, just struggling with stuff, but your day to day is solving stuff? And was it the case that you just looked at him and said you can moan about it or you can just solve it dude. Like you’re gonna quit or not because this is a great idea. We should start a company to do this. Like, is this what happened?
Gordon Tay 9:23
Well, I it was two ways as well, right? Like he wasn’t just just to be a little bit clearer. Right?
Michael Waitze 9:31
He wasn’t just sitting there moaning he was like, we can do that.
Gordon Tay 9:33
Yeah, he had like all these ideas in his mind as well, right? Like we we couldn’t really change on the industry if we did this or that. And we were just bouncing ideas off each other. And, and I was just sort of providing my point of view, right, just understanding how tech companies that time work in telling him or you know what, like this idea, I’m not sure it’s out of whack or like, you know what, that’s whatever you just say, super feasible is something that can be done. So things like that. And then you know, when you have conversations, it just gets you more and more excited. And then like, it just grows in your head.
Michael Waitze 9:50
It’s weird, right? Like, the more you talk about it, the more it feels like you’re already in the process of solving it. So why not just go do this thing, right? Instead of sitting around talking about let’s go do this?
Gordon Tay 10:13
Yeah, exactly. Right. So it was really sort of, in the early days, sort of a step by step process, not like we intended for it to be so bad how this whole thing started was that for about a year, year and a half, it was sort of like a side project, we were bootstrapping, we’re just doing it here and there. The whole thing started getting real for us, when we actually managed to get the beta version of Surer out to actual users that we are solving problems for. So like in the early days, we sat next to our users, right, and then getting them to try their hands on it, get sort of real time feedback, understand their body language and how they are interacting with the product. And we saw that we are actually doing something that potentially could just really help this early stage users, and they were pretty pleased with it. So that’s where we started thinking, right? Like now now he’s getting stuffs getting real, like, let’s, let’s decide if we want to do this. And if we want to do this, then we have to commit full time.
Michael Waitze 11:21
Yeah, cuz no one succeeds doing anything part time. Can you run me through because I love this idea, right? I did this in reverse. When I was on the trading desk at Goldman Sachs, we would have the tech teams come sit with us to understand what the workflow was. And then to see what type of technology we needed to build to make that workflow more automated. And it sounds like you were kind of doing the same thing in reverse. You’re saying, just walk me through your day walk me through the process. So I can see where those inefficient points are. Because there’s got to be a tech solution to be able to solve that regardless. Right? So if you’re making a phone call, can you click on something instead? If you calling 25 people, can I make a place where 25 people can be? You click on once and it sends a message to someone like whatever it was, but what were those inefficiencies? And how does tech solve them? If that makes sense?
Gordon Tay 12:06
Yeah, so like, a lot of things, right. So one of the things or what we are known for amongst insurance intermediaries, would be automated deal tracking. Previously, if I want to meet a client, I get all my information. The next thing I have to do for this customer, right as an intermediary, would be to get them quotations or to find the right product for them. Right? How would I do it traditionally, would be that I’d have to take this information, either send an email to my underwriter or if an insurer had a standalone portal, I’d have to go in there key in the details one by one. And then I repeat this step with another insurer, right to get another option. So you’re sort of repeating your actions
Michael Waitze 12:51
multiple times, you could do this like 10 times.
Gordon Tay 12:53
Yeah, exactly. And it’s very prone to human error as well. Right. So what they do on Surer is that they do that action once and then they share it with multiple insurance. There is a very, I’m not sure if I’m going too much into the details. So in Singapore, and in a lot of markets, right? Different. We use the term intermediaries collectively, right. But what they really what this term represents would be different segments of agents, right, who are licensed to sell insurance. So each of them have their own sort of regulatory limitations, right? Or superpowers, right. So for example, a general insurance agent, they are limited to only be able to represent three insurers. If I were to go to like that repeated steps that I mentioned earlier, right? I go to three insurance, I get the quotes, and then I go back to my customer, customer says, You know what, not good enough, as a responsible intermediary, then suggests, hey, you know what, I’ve got this other peer that I trust, who represents three other insurer, then this person, this peer, would have to go through the entire process again, then the two of them meet the customer and say, yeah, now you’ve got six, six options, right? So you can imagine sort of like the tangled mess, right that these intermediaries would have to go through to satisfy all properties of a customer by essentially you’re just talking about one set of information going to multiple insurance, right for the same purpose. Right. So that is one thing that our users really like about us. The other thing would be turnaround time, right? A lot of products, they are sort of still manually underwritten, or quoted for right. So I’ll say in my underwriter proposal, the underwriter looks at the risk, and then they get back manually with a quotation right? We realize that they are and I wouldn’t say all products because some products still need. There are a lot of other products that are more common, maybe a lot more commoditized as well, where you can have quotations which generated instantaneously, right? If you’ve got your parameters returned well enough. So that’s the other thing that we provide to our users working with insurance companies building instant quotation functionalities. So these intermediaries basically goes onto our platform, same set of information, getting the quotations instantaneously, right? So you can imagine if I’m, if you weren’t my customer, and I’m an intermediary, you’ve given me your information. And I have to tell you, Hey, let me get back to you in like five days. That is what happens, right? By like, with instant quotes, then you’re sitting next, I’m sitting next to you. And I’m telling you, right, give me three seconds.
Michael Waitze 15:38
Particularly for generic product, and in a way, like, I always wonder why they only allow you to just have have a relationship with three insurance companies. But in a way, it argues for like husbands and wives to both both be insurance agents, and then you can have access to six companies and still be in the same household or get the same commission, right, I guess, I guess is why a lot of insurance agents have other insurance agents as friends. And they split comps, yeah.
Gordon Tay 16:02
Yeah. So you’ve got another intermediary type, right. Who’s licensed to sell insurance, financial advisors, specifically, they do not have this limitation on the number of insurance they can represent. But imagine even if I had access to all 30, 40 insurance in the market, I literally have to repeat my action for n-times, right? To get like a quotation. So So you still be facing a problem in that sense.
Michael Waitze 16:28
In the stock market, right? If I want to get a quote on a stock, so I don’t own it, I don’t want to give a broker an agency order, but I want them to just at risk, we say, right, just like offer me a million shares of Toyota, right? I can go to like six different brokers and get a quote instantaneously at the same time, and then I can actually go like this. You know, Morgan Stanley just said I could buy it at one on one and you just said one on 1.25, I can give you a chance to match this thing. So there’s like a real time and I guess now it’s all electronic. Right. But all this stuff happens. Does your market can your marketplace do that? Legally? No, what I mean, so the people can actually like bid and offer insurance. It’s mostly offering I’m guessing, right, but didn’t offer insurance in real time. So they can see like where the market is for this stuff? Or is it opaque still. So, the insurer A can’t see what insurer B is doing. Do you want? I mean,
Gordon Tay 17:19
yeah, I get what you mean. But I think just to be sort of a little bit clearer on like, who gets access to our platform in the marketplace? It’s purely a platform that serves the intermediaries. So if you’re sort of the end policy holder, you wouldn’t have read? I can’t see it. Yeah, yeah. So it is the intermediaries who go in, and then they then look for the best options for their customers in that sense. And going back to your question, right, and they wouldn’t be able to view quotations of insurers who have placed their products on our platform, right, regardless of whether they represent this insurer
Michael Waitze 17:56
Or not. Okay, what was? What was it like at the beginning? And to be fair, you’re not that far away from the beginning. But what was it like at the beginning, when you first tried to get insurance on the platform, right? So intermediaries obviously love this, right? Because for them, at minimum, it lowers their workload, because they can do instead of doing the same thing, 40 times they can do it once really, really well, and then pump it out to all the necessary people. But on the insurance side, for them, it creates a little bit of transparency where before wasn’t so transparent. Yeah. What was that? Like at the beginning?
Gordon Tay 18:26
Yeah, that was a really good question. Right. And we, we had our concerns as well. Right? When before when, when we were at the start of this journey, which, yeah, like what you mentioned with Stuart, right, that’s about a year ago, how we first started was we knew we were going to face sort of a chicken and egg issue, right. Like, on the one hand, I’ll be telling them URIs who use this platform, they’ll be saying, who are the insurance there? Right? If I were to go to the insurer, right, and say, Hey, here’s our platform will say like, you’ve got two intermediaries using you, right? What’s the point? What’s the point? Right? So when we first launched, we did not have that marketplace that I mentioned for instant quotation. So it was purely serving the intermediaries, they’re creating their proposals, how then this intermediaries gets to send this proposal to their insurance that they represent will be just simply setting up their profile with the insurance that they represent, and with an email address, so that line of contact that they already have, right? So essentially, you’re sending a proposal form to multiple insurance at one go, right? So it doesn’t matter if an insurer actually heard about us or represents us. We always knew that we would have questions right from intermediaries, if insurance, do not get back to them. And like with the conversations that we have, with a number of the early sort of insurance that joined us, was organic, right? So they receive something from the intermediary and it’s like, what is this click on that Contact Us button? And then we explain our solution to the Azure right? And we were really proud pit right for that question that you asked, which is, am I now exposing myself to comparison right amongst intermediaries. But I think, and this is one point that I felt really happy about right would be the openness that insurance companies have. We launched in the pandemic, right in the midst of the pandemic. So like, I mean, all the rage was about like, are you ready to handle another pandemic like that, when you have to move fast, you have to treat your products first, and things like that. So they were really open to harm listen to our proposition, that question came about and then like we and this is what we openly share before insurances? Well, essentially, if you are going to be able to give a quotation to an intermediary on your own siloed platform, how can you guarantee that like, this intermediary isn’t going to another platform, right? And then getting that quotation and then comparing because at the end of the day, if you’re saying that you want to serve the customers best, right, then the intermediary would have to do that as part of their job. Right? Right. So instead of fighting this, why not focus on building competitive products, and that that is an amazing, really candid here as well, right. And then that is what I love insurance, then get back to, as they say, they always use this term, we’ve got this killer product, right, so most competitive in the market. And so then we say, if it’s the most competitive, it’s a killer product, then you wouldn’t mind right? Having people know about it, right. And that one extra point would be, and this is what a lot of them consider to be a pro against that con, right of showcasing their product, everyone would be if an intermediary has a need for your product, does not represent you, but now has access to have a first look at this product, then the opportunity for this product can be floated to the end policyholder becomes higher, right? And you’re essentially expanding your distribution channel. Right? So our platform allows this as well would be if the customer is interested in this product, and I’m not a rep of the insurer, then this intermediary if he wants to close this deal, gets their paperwork done to represent the insurer. So number one, you’ve sort of, for an insurance company solved a problem of business leakage, for the reason that there’s a lack of visibility, and at the same time, that bonus will be recruited an agent as well. Right. So. So that’s, that’s really sort of regurgitating what I’m what we usually share with insurance companies. Right. And without going into like too much numbers, what we’ve also realized, just for general insurance agents alone, where they have that sort of limit on the number of interests they can represent, you’d be surprised, right? And we were surprised this found it, I think close to 90% of them have not maxed out those three slots.
Michael Waitze 22:54
Really? Why is that though?
Gordon Tay 22:57
So we did a manual count, right? If you were to go to the GIA portal, you’ll be able to see sort of an alias for customers as well, to check if the agent is properly licensed, you’ll be able to sort of like see who this agent represents. If they are legit. We went through every one of them. And then we did a manual count. And yeah, that’s that’s the number, right? Yeah.
Michael Waitze 23:18
That’s unbelievable. Was it always your intention to build this instant quote marketplace, but you thought, if we do it right away, then it’s going to be harder, or just an outgrowth of, you know, wait a second, we’ve already solved this problem of getting people on the platform, we now have two sides where we have the intermediaries and we have the insurers. If we can make it more interactive on both sides and put this instant, quote, thing in the middle, then we’ll be better or was this always the idea from the beginning?
Gordon Tay 23:43
It was always part of the plan, when when we first started, but we knew that it couldn’t be something that we were sort of capable of doing right. Just purely for that reason I mentioned earlier, if you’ve got no intermediaries, then who would want to reach insurance company would even be keen to listen to your proposition, right? Yeah, I think like as an extended point that we did face a couple of sort of challenges as well, right, onboarding more products on the instant, quote, marketplace. So not every insurer has the technical sort of capability for full integration, right. So initially, how we did it was you have to integrate with JIRA. And that comes with costs in terms of resource in terms of being ready. So what we have done, and launch would be this thing called the product builder. Essentially, it caters to insurance who wants to move fast, with simpler products, lesser parameters for generating petitions, and we essentially rebuild it off on Shara and hook it back up with the insurer instead of the other way around.
Michael Waitze 24:52
Well, first of all, let’s get back to this integration thing. Is it API based? In other words, is it really that difficult to integrate? If you’re an incumbent insurer with the Surer platform, because if there’s an API there, it should be relatively simple. Right? They must connect other stuff via API’s. Right. So how does that work anyway?
Gordon Tay 25:11
Theoretically, it shouldn’t be that difficult. Yeah. But where where we understand the challenge is for the insurance companies would be that not all of them have sort of an API layer built on top of their system in the first place. So and to be honest, most insurers that we spoken to say they’re either in the midst of or completing the, which, which is, which is, I think, like an encouraging sign for the industry, regardless whether shore exists or not. Right, right. Right. And it’s just that point I made right when you ask about trends. So is that point that I made around like, how there are many other tech solution providers out there who help with this? All for the reason of just being ready to be inclusive, right. Like, if you’ve got an API layer, then you’ll be able to connect yourself with partners, right? Regardless if it is Surer, it could be Grab. It could be any sort of mass platform. Right, that makes sense for an insurer to sort of plug their products in.
Michael Waitze 26:08
Yeah, I mean, there’s got to be a decent sized business out there just creating the API layer for existing businesses, not just insurance, right for existing businesses, so that they can connect to companies, in this case in the insurance industry, with companies like sure, but in any case, in any industry, where there’s an API on the other side, and they’re like API, like I don’t know. You know what I mean? It’s just don’t know. Yeah, the longer you’re around, and the more inquiry you get that goes back and forth, right, you can see pricing, but you can also see interest in product. Is there a way you said, you built this thing called what? Like the new product, new product builder? Can you propose new products to insurers? Are you at that point already? You know what I mean? We’re like, look everywhere. For product X, why don’t you build this thing? And then you’ll just get a ton of business from that kind of thing. You know what I mean?
Gordon Tay 26:55
Yes, yes, exactly. You’ve got that point. Exactly. Right. So we’ve had conversations with insurance, one of which, who’s also an investor in Sure called Markel. Essentially, we saw a market opportunity, right? And we say, like, you guys have the capability underwriting capability. This, this is a line of product that you’re you’ve got expertise in, like, can we do something there? And that conversation then happened really quickly thereafter?
Michael Waitze 27:26
Yeah. I mean, because you’re in now you’re in the product business as well, which is probably something you didn’t anticipate at the beginning. No.
Gordon Tay 27:33
Yeah, definitely. That wasn’t something that we sort of plan for being able to speak to an insurer and then creating a product. I think one thing on this point for us to add as well, that is that was really nice and encouraging for the industry, in general would be the integration work that we did with this other insurer called FWD in Singapore. So it goes further from just generating instant quotation. So we saw this gap in the market, right? And this was feedback from intermediaries as well, where where they say, you know, I’ve been offering my clients like packaged products, right, essentially, products, where you only get to choose from a gold, silver bronze tier, whatever that goes into the each of these here is fixed, right? I’ve got so many customers who need something more customized, more bespoke. Right. But I know it’s hard for me as an independent agent to then get something customized just for one customer. Right, so So this work we did with FWD, it’s for a foreign domestic worker insurance product. What we were able to do with them was that we break everything down to the modular level. So essentially, the intermediary gets to go onto the shore platform and define exactly the lines of karma that they want to go into this foreign domestic worker insurance product right there after quotations that are generated instantaneously as well. So we’ve been told by we can generate up to 400 million permutations of quotation so it’s really encouraging just in general for for the industry, right? Where you can now serve the policyholder on such a level and not be bogged down right by process nightmare. If I were to put it that way, and get to do it fast and instantaneous. Yeah, because we really do believe that like and especially for business insurance on commercial lines, then the needs are sort of quite specific right how many times we’ve heard this too many times where we’ve been talking to a customer just just pick a package because they had to because they trusted me as an intermediary but like we like Lamy the intermediary was really transparent as well and say, you know, like some of these products that are packaged into this package that you’re purchasing you don’t really need.
Michael Waitze 29:58
Look this happens in every part of your life, right? Like I go to this restaurant sometimes. And it comes with this. And this is I think that really similar, right? Like, it comes with this vegetable thing. And I don’t want that I want spinach instead, this is a real thing. I’m not even making this up. Like, okay, well, the spinach is extra. I’m like, but I don’t want the other thing. So why do I have to pay for that thing to? So what I do is I get an extra vegetables, which I don’t eat, and I give away to a homeless person and I get the spinach that I want. Do you know what I mean? It’s so weird.
Gordon Tay 30:27
That’s that’s exactly the analogy as well, right? That meet me sometimes use right. So you’re you’re forced to buy a meal? Because you don’t have a choice and all three nails if there’s something in there that you do not want or you want to swap out for? Yeah, right. So it applies to insurance as well. And I think this is something that should be continued to be looked at. And at the end of the day, right? You want the end policyholder, to be insured for what they need to and not not just for the sake of it.
Michael Waitze 30:59
Yeah, exactly. So I want to end on this a little bit. Although I feel like I could go on and on with this conversation because it’s so interesting to me. Is Derren happier now.
Gordon Tay 31:11
Derren, he, he’s naturally a happy man. But yeah, definitely a lot happier. Definitely a lot happier, but a lot more stressed out as well. Because live in a startup is always stressful.
Michael Waitze 31:22
That’s the trade off, right? It’s like now I can do what I want to do. But then the answer is you have it now you have to do that thing you said you’re gonna do. It’s really hard. Really hard. Okay, Gordon, thank you so much for doing this today. Gordon, a co founder of Surer at some point we’re gonna have to have Derren on and maybe some of the other founders as well, but it was really great to have you on the show today. I really appreciate it.
Gordon Tay 31:45
Yeah, no, we really should have Derren on.